Gavin and Janet Interviewed

M: It's great to see you both again, welcome back to Holland! It's nearly a year ago since you were here last. During the workshop in Amsterdam "Witchcraft and Traditional Irish Paganism" with Stewart, you talked about Witchcraft past and present. Could you tell us more about the changes you have witnessed over the years?

J: Probably the most important change has been the conscious awareness of the need to become adults. In 1970 when Stewart and I were initiated into the Craft the physical age and mentality in the coven was moulded by the elders. There was little encouragement to think for yourself.

We were in the Sanders coven for about one year. We then felt it was necessary to stretch our mental abilities; Stewart was already in his fifties, I was in my early twenties. We met others from different traditions and there arose the serious question of progress within the Craft. It was all very childlike and we were rather like children in kindergarten. But Stewart was an adult who had travelled, including a vist to Auschwitz. He was involved in cleaning up the physical mess of post-war Europe.

I as an ex-60's hippie wanted to see Modern Witchcraft move towards a university rather than the kindergarten it was.We left England in 1976 and moved to Ireland. At that time we used basic Alexandrian/ Gardnerian guidelines in the coven. Suddenly however we were put into a different culture. We started to become familiar with the culture of the Republic of Ireland, learning their history, delving into Irish Pagan roots. Really there is very little difference between the Celtic Tribal people and the Saxon, Norse Teutonic peoples. The more we researched into historical documents the more we realised how modern Wicca really was. So much of "modern" Wicca is based on medieval superstition rather than grass root paganism.

Grimoires and Enochian, even "modern Qabala", bear no relation whatsoever to OUR ancestors. Our true Pagan ancestral roots are of Shamanistic origin. All of the books we have written are a guideline to discovering those roots.

Our active practice is far more Shamanistic. We truly believe that the ancestral knowledge is passed down by word of mouth and experience rather than high-bound laws.

G. One of the problems for many Pagans is that they were brought up in a patriarchal religious culture which put an emphasis on "The Religion of the Book"; Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Unfortunately many have brought some of this culture over into their Pagan practise without realising it. Hence we see an over emphasis by some within Wicca on the importance of The Book of Shadows; it has become a sort of "Gospel". The same, of course has happened to the Laws. Many Wiccans giving the Craft Laws the same stature as the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament, when they should be adaptable, common sense laws.

J. Common sense laws are very simple: they are for the protection and loyalty of home, family and the teachers you should respect as opposed to Wicca as it is being practised today. In many traditions today we have become rebels. I truly believe that the ancient Craft, as it was genuinely practised, is a Shamanistic ancestrally based priesthood.

G: In the 60's the Pagan movement was in its infancy, taking its first steps in the 70's. From the 70's to the 80's it was like a child learning to walk. The late 80's and 90's saw the onset of adolescence, with the emergence of (inner) conflicts. As a child discovering its own personality the Pagan movement had to find its way into adulthood. Whilst organisations emerged, it was also a time that many charlatans emerged and flourished. Although there was social control to stop such people inevitably the rebellious character so typical of adolescence needed a place so that progress could be made into adulthood.

J: Although I don't really regard Alex and Maxine Sanders as my spiritual parents, nor Doreen Valiente, or Eleanor Bone or Ruth Wynn Owen as my spiritual sisters, I have loved and cared for them very much. I do however regard them (and others in the Craft) as teachers. But in the end my own spiritual guide in the Craft, my own ancestors, and the Lord and Lady will guide me. This does not belittle any of the above mentioned - it means that every single one of them has played an important role in educating me as a woman.

G: There has been a definite switch from pure male leadership to more of a female/male leadership. I think from the 70's onwards there has been a real emergence of balance. Slowly there has been the integration and understanding of feminism. There has been a parallel development both socially and within Craft circles.

There has been an upsurge of new traditions in the last twenty years. In the mid-70's you had say, 4 main traditions. Now there are several dozen.

In a sense this is a typical natural phenomenon and Wicca is only following the natural laws of evolution. Nature loves diversity, growth and variation. Species (and traditions) which have not adapted have not survived and are now extinct. Lines need to be flexible, and to a great extent the people involved need to be dynamic, and that usually means being seen as rebellious by some.

Today one of the biggest challenges is to discover the true male mystery. For many centuries there has been male domination. During the last few decades women have been slowly recognised in their own right and the Goddess is being recognised as a real force. Female mysteries have been explored, and experienced, and the Goddess has been restored to her rightful place. (Some would have her on a pedestal....)

However I believe 21st century priestesses need to allow priests to (re)claim their place and discover their own mysteries. This is surely true adult spirituality? In essence it is a movement and awareness towards personal power and responsibility.

He was an officer during the Second World War. Before that his father had fought in the First World War. Stewart grew up in a Christian Science family. After his ordeal and horrors of both Wars he became an "interested Agnostic" and also had an interest in Communist ideals. When he met Alex and Maxine their views "clicked" with him from a cultural point of view. To him Witchcraft was a religion which made sense. It made him feel optimistic.

He knew that things would change. Even now at 81 he has high hopes for a long term future for the Craft. He is delighted with every new innovation - especially Internet. He believes that it is perhaps the most important development in the Craft since 1951. People have to talk, communicate, listen. Suddenly the Craft is no longer a small "village" but part of the global village where international boundaries are being broken down, the likes of which Gerald Gardner probably never visualised, could not visualise.

G: In the past Paganism was at loggerheads with Christianity - now that there is a greater movement towards Ecumenical co-operation. There is new polarity between Fundamentalism and Libertarian Spirituality.

J: There are still many problems however in the Modern Craft/Pagan movement. A great deal of people are still playing childish games such as "I have better secrets than you". Those Pagans and Witches who still play mind games will not only burn themselves out, but also their tradition and any traditions they even start for their own groups.

If we aren't honest about our roots, these traditions will just collapse under the lies which have accumulated on top of them. Without this awareness of honesty past damage cannot be healed and there can be no growth or evolution.

G. Yes, but we're not saying that some Wiccan Traditions should be allowed to collapse. We believe that those within those traditions should be aware of those weaknesses and should not pull the wool over their eyes, or anyone elses, for the sake of tradition. After all, they're not going to shaw up the roots of their tree if they won't or don't, recognise that there is a problem.

M: On the whole then - with some reservations - you too, like Stewart, are confident that Modern Witchcraft has a future. Where do you think the Craft is heading to in the 21st century?

G: There is a need for diversity if Witchcraft is going to evolve. Its evolution is however dictated by the socio-geographical environment. For example in the United States - where we have given a number of lectures and workshops and have seen recent developments - we have noticed vast differences. There are different sets of laws and customs in each State. It is truly a federation of States. In some States there is more religious oppression than ever in Gerald Gardner's day. There covens have strict oaths of secrecy and need to be underground because of this religious oppression. This has had a great deal of influence on the development of the Craft there.

On the other hand in Northern California, for example, the atmosphere is much more open and therefore people can express themselves much more freely. In a way Wicca is a "political animal" and as such people like Starhawk have had a good deal of influence there. This is certainly not the case in South Carolina, Georgia or Louisiana, the so-called Bible Belt.

In Europe too Witchcraft will develop differently in each country - it may be less or more hierarchical, more or less open depending on religious customs and freedom. Civil laws will also effect the status of each group and tradition.

But what does seem to be a general world-wide trend is the idea of a "Coven Based Tradition" - and a more lineal development rather than one based on lineage. Lineage is becoming less important and less essential. As the awareness for more honesty emerges we will see that only relevant material will be passed on rather than a set of dogmatic principles.

G: There will be less occult, less hidden. We will probably see a greater move towards speciality - i.e. that covens will be concerned with a particular speciality, such as healing. There will be less overlap and less generality as people concentrate on their strong points.

G: I've no doubt either that groups of covens will form into loose networks in which they can exchange information. Then it is not so important where they come from.

Probably many more traditions will arise until they actually become irrelevant.... In the last 5 years about 15/20 traditions have been launched - how many will be still be around in the following 5 years, I wonder?

G: One which springs to mind is the "Blue Star Coven" - it arose from "The Paganway" a New York based group formed by Herman Slater. Later this evolved into "Blue Star Coven" run by Tzsipora Klein. Now it is a loose network of covens.

G: Perhaps, a modern sort of guild. I don't think Alex ever intended that there ever be such a thing as the "Alexandrian" tradition - in fact in a recent article in "The Wiccan" Maxine Sanders stated that this term was a creation of Stewarts; this made us laugh a lot to say the least, and it was jokingly suggested to us that we held copyright on the name. The same applied to Gerald Gardner; it is said that "Gardnerians" was a term of abuse thought up by Robert Cochrane. These terms are labels which are gradually becoming irrelevant. People are beginning to judge Witches by their ethics and their practise. Slowly paganism is beginning to grow up.

M: Where a self- regulating process is the driving force, rather than directives from "above"? This would seem to be a more natural, organic approach.

G: Perhaps there will be a decline in interest soon and then there will be an upsurge again. Rather like a wave motion. One of the things which will be asked is, where does Wicca fit into the Pagan community? What is the legal status? Can it be both a mystery religion and fulfil an ecumenical, general role? I think there will be more dialogue and interfaith communication both on philosophical and community questions.

Paganism has been part of the counter-culture for too long and now it is moving into adulthood. Its central theme has been a direct link with divinity, but it is perhaps not realistic to think that everyone can share that view. Some people will look to Wiccan/Pagan priests and priestesses to act as intermediaries, for example for handfastings, the blessing of children and funeral rites.

J: We are already offering help to people who would otherwise be left out in the cold. In Ireland we have for example worked with a Brahmin priest because he had no other temple in this country to practise his religion.

G: As it is there is no laity within Wicca. The Priesthood path should still be an initiatory path - there is still a need to discover the commitment. And our primary connection is to Spirit. But there are different ways of doing it.

There is still a need for the personalised way of organising yourself and the networks can provide guidance. For example people of different ethnic backgrounds can be catered for without "selling out"

G: Yes, but training can only be guidance. A mentor can only teach a person how to function in the role of priest/priestess. The basic underlying techniques of reactivating magical ancestral links are paramount. This is not a racial thing, more a question of reactivating "ancient memory". Training is essentially learning to experience.

We are servants of the God and Goddess and we are also servants to the Pagan community. As such we are servants to humanity and in this sense the priesthood is not an "elite club".

J: Once people come to understand this there will be a greater growth of healthy, powerful people. Until now there have been many ego trippers who have abused their powers. They really are ill individuals

G: There is some pain involved - the so-called witch-wars can act in a cathartic way in sorting out problems. The Dark Gods have a way of weeding and pruning and this process has already started.

G: There has always been a basic set of ethical principles throughout the centuries and they are all-important despite modern trends. The Wiccan tenet "An it harm none - do what you will" is still a basic but highly important ethical principle.

G: People get hurt; it's a sad fact of life. But we should also see it as part of the learning process. Those who have been hurt need to recognise that what they have been through is a negative (subjective, painful, hurtful) lesson from which they can also learn. They need to transform the painful experience into something positive which makes them stronger. From these experiences they can learn important lessons about ethics and principles, and more importantly about the darker aspects of the self - Carl Gustav Jung's "Shadow".

In the end they have to listen and break the cycle to make the connection within. They have to recognise what's out there for what it is. This is what we fondly call "Learning the Trade". These experiences and their overcoming, can be an initiation in their own right.